The Choice: Clinton or Obama?

For the past four years, I have been a supporter of John Edwards for President.  I have promoted him to my friends, family, and complete strangers across the Internet.  I have donated a substantial (to me) sum of money to him, and raised even more money for him via ActBlue and a private fundraising page.  I admired his boldness, his dedication, and most of all I admired his voice in this race.  I admired him for standing up against the big interests and for rejecting lobbyist and PAC money for all three of his federal races. Even though he didn't win a single state, he clearly won the battle of ideas.  John Edwards set the Democratic agenda for this primary season from day one, something supporters of all candidates should be thankful for.  

With John out of the race, and with Tsunami Tuesday just 5 days away, the time has come for me to endorse another candidate.

This process was difficult for me.  In Barack Obama, we have an energetic, young Democrat who was against the war from the start and decided to reject money from DC lobbyists and PACs.  He has truly excited young and black voters, which indicates that he may boost key parts of the Democratic coalition.  But he has only been on the national scene for just over three years.  He has shown a willingness to compromise with Republicans, and to use Republican language against other Democrats.  He hired Robert Gibbs, one of the most disgraceful Democratic operatives in history, to be his communications director.  He voted "present" on dozens of important votes while in the Illinois legislature.  He used an anti-gay preacher named Donnie McClurkin to campaign for him in South Carolina.  And until recently, he hasn't shown an indication that he will do what is necessary to win.  After all, he's young and will have another chance in 4 or 8 years.  In short, Barack Obama is too much of a blank slate.  He's too fresh, and with the recent arrest of his political patron Tony Rezko (a man Obama says was just a passing business acquaintance), who knows what's coming down the pike.  It's hard for Democrats to know just what part of the party Obama will throw under the bus when it's crunch time.

In Hillary Clinton, we have a candidate who has many flaws.  She accepts PAC and lobbyist money.  She is a consummate Washington insider and it's possible she will arouse the Republican base.  Her online supporters have been among the foulest in the world and have not helped her candidacy, with only a few notable exceptions (GeorgeP, Bookgrl and Sepulvedaj the most notable exceptions).  Her husband's antics in South Carolina bordered on racist and cost her support among black voters.  Despite these flaws, at least we know what to expect with her.  She has a history of standing up for Democratic values.  She excites female voters, a key Democratic constituency.  Single and older women voters (including my grandmother) are most excited about the thought of a female president.  She has never voted "present" on issues important to us.  Being an insider, Clinton knows how to work within the system to change it.  Unlike Obama, her health care plan is truly universal.  More importantly, unlike Obama, I believe she will do whatever it takes to win.  She knows this is her first, last and only chance to run.  She will fight harder than any candidate for President has ever fought and she will win.  She will apply a litmus test and appoint only pro-choice judges.  Between Clinton and Obama, there is one candidate prepared to lead on day one.  That candidate is Hillary Clinton, my (second) choice for President of the United States.

No matter which of these two candidates is our nominee, they will be infinitely better than any Republican. Our side has an embarassment of riches, and I have never been prouder to be a Democrat.

And John Edwards, I want you to go finish what you've started.  Run against Elizabeth Dole and go back to the Senate.  Help build the path to 60 votes in the US Senate.  You're a young, healthy man.  In 8 years, you will be Clinton's age.  And I'll still be here, ready for you to vote for you again.



Display:


hey (none / 0)

welcome :)


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:30:51 PM EST

Re: hey (none / 0)

Welcome indeed.

Democrats need to break away from the past, which is precisely where Hillary is going with her promise to reproduce Clintonism, the first indication being, not just her proposal for a corporate run universal health care system, but her defaming the idea of a single-payer system a la Medicare or Medicaid. It tells us just how Republican the next Clinton administration would be.

Obama is said to have less substance. I don't find problems with that necessarily, because Hillary's substance is just more of the Republican Lite governance we witnessed in the 90s, when Bill Clinton stole the Republican's positions on many issues.

We are not Republicans.

We need someone in there who will steal the Democratic positions. That could be Obama or it could actually be McCain. His early positions on illegal immigration as well as being against tax breaks for the wealthy suggest it.


Click on Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land and learn the truth about the I/P conflict.
by shergald on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:17:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (2.00 / 1)

Wow.....

Welcome aboard Vox , I am shocked you made that decision.

Thank You.

Do you think Edwards would endorse Clinton ?

I have heard that he wants to but his team is advising against it.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:34:00 PM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (2.00 / 1)

I think if he endorsed, it would be Obama.  Like I said, I think they are both good choices and he will choose the one that is right for him.  They both mostly adopted his policies, so like I say he won the ideas primary and that's what matters.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:35:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am not shocked (none / 0)

I remember at least six months ago Vox said that he preferred Hillary to Obama. Since then Obama's campaign has done many things to reinforce the concerns Vox had expressed about Obama going way back.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am not shocked (none / 0)

I actually floated between the two.  I initially had Clinton as a second choice to Edwards.  But when the "trot out his dying wife" bullshit started (yes, I was influenced by the Internets), and it really looked like it was going to be a corronation, I gave Obama a second look and was with him for the rest of 2007.

After John lost Iowa, I had to think about who would fight the hardest to win, and the answer was clearly Clinton.  Like I said though they are both good candidates and both should win in November.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:42:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (2.00 / 1)

There are two points that seem particularly important to me as a former Edwards supporter.

First, I think there is no question that Hillary Clinton is the truest to John Edwards' fighting spirit.  She knows what the Republicans are all about, she knows they are not interested in unity, she knows "you cannot nice them to death."

Second, we know what the media did to John Edwards.  We know they decided from the start that this was going to be a 2-way race, and they marginalized him the whole way through.  After that shameful performance, I simply will NOT allow these people to choose our nominee for us.  A vote for Hillary is a vote against Chris Matthews and Tim Russert and all the other Hillary-haters who want nothing more than to crown Obama all by themselves.  Unacceptable.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:45:26 PM EST

Our candidates are becoming caricatures (none / 0)

of themselves.  You write:

She knows what the Republicans are all about, she knows they are not interested in unity, she knows "you cannot nice them to death."

Is that at all what her record in the United States senate tells us?  Her courting of local Republican officials in upstate New York with small development projects?  Her careful work to win over Republican allies in the Senate?  

Somehow Clinton became "Give em hell" Hill and Obama became "Kumbayah".  That's what an election does, I guess.  It's just that neither of those caricatures have all that much to do with reality.


One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 07:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Our candidates are becoming caricatures (none / 0)

Huh?  On the major issues, there will be no opportunity for bipartisanship.

It is Obama's Senate record, not Clinton's, that gives far more reason to doubt his approach can work in the real world.  What partisan issue has Obama gotten anyone to cross the aisle on?


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:26:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

interesting (none / 0)

still undecided myself.

I highly doubt edwards will ever run for anything...

If he wants to have maximal effect he'd have to do it ASAP but I think he might want to watch the debate first.

there's a rumor he's in LA tomorrow and will walk the writer's union picket line.

Makes me wonder if he's going to endorse after the debate?


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:47:16 PM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

She has never voted "present" on issues important to us.

Not true.  She voted Not Present on the very important Bankruptcy Bill.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/ 0312-03.htm


by Trent on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:49:32 PM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

I know we're not about to talk about missed votes... because Obama and Clinton are equally bad in that regard.  In fact, Clinton has a better attendance record than Obama.  And comparing vote for vote, Clinton and Obama have a nearly identical voting record.  Why get Clinton-lite when I can have the real thing?


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Obama's missed votes- 80% in the last 2 months:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/02/o bama.missed.votes/index.html


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:36:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Obviously, you didn't read the link:

Sen. Barack Obama has missed the most votes of any Democratic presidential hopeful in the Senate over the last two months, including a vote on an Iran resolution he has blasted Sen. Hillary Clinton for supporting.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:59:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (2.00 / 1)

Hillary voted against cloture on the bankruptcy bill, which was the only vote we actually had a chance to win.

She was not there for the final vote, the one you reference, because her husband was having heart surgery.

This one is not a fair attack.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:02:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton on Bankruptcy Bill (none / 0)

Hillary didn't vote on the bankruptcy bill because the vote was scheduled on the day Bill had surgery. Here's her forceful statement:

http://votesmart.org/speech_detail.php?s c_id=148867&keyword=&phrase=& ;contain=


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (2.00 / 1)

Welcome to the dark side, VP! :-)

I heard that Obama won't endorse anybody before Super Tuesday.  My guess is that he will get a cabinet post in either administration,  Why should he alienate one of the candidates needlessly?


by markjay on Wed Jan 30, 2008 at 11:52:51 PM EST

Wow... (2.00 / 1)

I'll just thank you for your kind words about Hill, and commend you for your attention to your grandmother's hopes.


formerly bookgirl
by masslib1 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:00:26 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Hillary's supporters are fouler than Obama supporters in your mind?  


by Mike Pridmore on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:01:49 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

At least the ones I've encountered here.  There are some really great people on the Obama side, including people I clashed with earlier last year.  There are the bad ones too, but that's a given with any candidate.

Everyone knows how much I don't like HWC and DpAndrews among others.  That doesn't change.


The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country. ~RFK
by Vox Populi on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

For like a month, we had to listen to constant comments from hwc about what a betrayal of the Democratic Party it was for Edwards to stay in the race with his wife being sick and all.  Cause like, what if she died in October and he missed a week of campaigning and we lost the election.  Seriously, he made this argument like a hundred times.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

:( I missed all that.  Fortunately.  I see the context now.


by Mike Pridmore on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Well, there's a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one. :)


by OrangeFur on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:12:05 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (2.00 / 0)

I agree Vox. Hopefully more of our former friends and Edwards supporters will join us. If Edwards decided for the Senate I would help all I could!!


by RDemocrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 12:32:34 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Thank you, Vox Populi. I'm a Hillary supporter but like all Dems, I respect and admire Senator Edwards very much. And I think you provided a thoughtful and fair assessment, for which I feel thankful. I hope other Edwards supporters will also think hard and give Hillary a chance. If anyone's interested, I've recently started a blog that takes a somewhat less political, and you might say more human-oriented, point of view toward Hillary: http://gettoknowhillary.blogspot.com/.
by nance on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:53:42 AM EST

I'm excited (none / 0)

to have you on Hillary's side. Welcome.


by lonnette33 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:38:17 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Thanks for joining the group!  It will be very important if Hillary wins the nomination that the Obama supporters help her win as President.  I lived through what the Dems did to Ned Lamont. I am very angry right now at how the media has try to force the direction of this election.  This is the most important election in my life time.  This is the people power media turn to show the way of being civil.  Thanks Go Hill!


by orion1 on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 07:40:52 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

(repost). I agreed - Hillary is only good choice we have now.
Obama is a false hope and empty promise, talker and not
a doer with no experience. I will vote the same
way as 55% of Michigans did and as 50% of Floridians did.  This how people voted so far and
this is the best poll you can find anywhere:

State  Vote  Hillary  Obama    John  
IA   221000  64090   83980    66300  
NH   285000 112251  104772  46681  
NV   118000 60180    53100   4720  
SC   530000 141128  295091  93552  
MI   572300 328151  137762  100000 (approx.)  
FL  1684390 856944  568930  248575  
All 3410690 1562744 1243635 559828

And I don't want to train President on his job.
And I resent people who vote "PRESENT".


by WeNeed3rdParty on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 07:52:30 AM EST

your Iowa numbers are off (none / 0)

Where did you get them?

The total turnout was closer to 240,000, and I'm pretty sure Hillary and John each ended up with over 70,000 supporters in Iowa, with Obama closer to 90,000.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:41:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: your Iowa numbers are off (none / 0)

thank you for correction! can you please post exact numbers and link with correct numbers?


by WeNeed3rdParty on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama and Edwards Weren't On MI Ballot (none / 0)

So, I'm wondering what those numbers represent?


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:13:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

I think more people need to read this:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Oba ma's_Iraq_Speech

When having to choose, this speech speaks louder than any speech Obama makes and louder than any chant that his "fans" are making.  This is the REAL difference between Obama and Hillary.  As voters, it's our responsibility to ask ourselves, "Who has the right Moral Compass to lead our nation in the right direction."


by rugaba on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:01:40 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

I think more people need to read this:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Oba ma's_Iraq_Speech

When having to choose, this speech speaks louder than any speech Obama makes and louder than any chant that his "fans" are making.  This is the REAL difference between Obama and Hillary.  As voters, it's our responsibility to ask ourselves, "Who has the right Moral Compass to lead our nation in the right direction."


by rugaba on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:02:15 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Well, I think the tide's against Hillary Clinton now. People are streaming toward Obama. I'm really disturbed by that, but not surprised. What the political insiders know all too well is that momentum creates the aura of inevitability, and everyone wants to be on board the train to destiny, right? Everyone wants to be part of the group. So all reason flies out the window, and emotional connection rules the day. The perception that they're part of the winning circle is what drives people, I guess.

Clinton is in trouble. And, I'm sort of alarmed by the swiftly turning tide, not because I hate Obama, or because I'm certain he couldn't be a fine president. I just wonder about his character. Here's a guy who has been caught red-handed lying--flat out lying--about how long he knew Rezko and what his relationship is; about his "universal" health care plan that isn't so "universal." About the recent petty and ugly show on the Senate floor for SOTU--the snub that Obama, Axelrod AND Clair McCaskill most certainly LIED about, because it has been proven:

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/arch ives/2008/01/the_media_covers_the_snub.p hp

So, he's ALREADY engaging in bald-faced lying to the American people, and he's not in the bully pulpit yet.

Things can only go downhill from there.

What does it say about a man when he will be so petty and mean-spirited and so lacking in grace AFTER A HUGE VICTORY, toward his opponent?


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Harry S Truman
by Tennessean on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:09:54 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

I have no problem with anyone stealing ideas in politics. If I have a good idea to put out on MYDD, I would be thrilled if Obama or Hillary stole my idea.


by Pravin on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:24:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

I am a guy who waffled between Obama and Edwards. I didn't like Edwards in 2004 . But I liked his improvement since then and he made it to the top of my list. Obama was my close second choice and I won't lie. Race was a factor but not for the reasons one might think. While Obama has hired a lot of insiders, I feel it is healthy for different power blocs to get into power to act as a check on any one power bloc. For me, this is just as important as other progressive principles.

Obama rising to President will give hope to that new power bloc. I have no problem with women wanting Hillary to be President based on the fact that she has hired many women to be part of her circle of advisers as long as it is only one of many factors.

Plus, right now we got more of a race rift in the country than a gender rift. When outsiders think of the US , they think of a racist country before they would think of us a sexist country. Obama's election can help repair some of that reputation. So there is a certain calculated factor in what I see as his intangibles to the outside world.

I think both are capable of dealing with foreign leaders well. I am just suspicious that Hillary will try to prove like she did before that as a woman she is just as capable as a guy to make tough war decisions even if they are foolish.

But it all comes down to a powerbloc for me. I want to see new people get power. Maybe it's my Indian origin which has given me exposure to  how harmful long tenures at the top can be even by good people. I don't know.  We will see.

What I am frustrated with is neither of the candidates are easily accessible to the liberal blogs where they can answer some tough questions. I see right wing radio hosts, even the itty bitty ones, get access to national leaders and grill them why they are not doing more in certain areas. It is tough to really make out if a candidate is for real. I saw Obama's interview with MYDD. It really gave me  no information on the guy.


by Pravin on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:21:45 AM EST

Re: The Choice: Clinton or Obama? (none / 0)

Another thing I like about Obama over Hillary is that he seems not to wedded to old ideas as much. Will this translate to any real action as president, i do not know for sure. But I would rather give a different leader a chance to find out than the same old people we get.

I might be one of the more anti Hillary MYDDers, but even I will concede the difference between the two has not been as stark as it can seem to be.


by Pravin on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 10:23:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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